In this episode I speak with Ramil Añosa Andag, sexual orientation, gender identity and expression and sex characteristics rights officer at APCOM. We delve into research conducted by APCOM into various areas of discrimination and exclusion faced by LGBTQI communities and how these link with financial inclusion. Ramil explains why APCOM is reaching out to new actors, including development banks and the financial sector, in its efforts to improve the health and rights of LGBTQI communities in Asia and the Pacific. And we discuss how traditional and digital financial services must move beyond traditional binaries in order to become more inclusive. You can find out more about APCOM at apcom.org
01:28 Introducing APCOM and the Finance Inc. project
03:56 Addressing new actors in LGBTQI inclusion: development banks and the private sector
06:27 APCOM's work with the Asian Development Bank
07:44 How development banks could do more
09:35 Discrimination in the domains of education, work, health and financial services compound one another. The results of APCOM's research into experiences of exclusion of LGBTQI groups.
15:21 Experiences with financial institutions
19:02 How financial institutions can support LGBTQI individuals
19:53 The need for two-way capacity building between financial institutions and LGBTQI organizations
20:54 Might digital financial services help reduce discrimination?
23:54 What would a financial system that was truly inclusive of LGBTQI people look like?
26:52 My reflections on the interview
27:24 What about COVID-19?
You can find out more about APCOM's research into the impact of COVID-19 and its effects on diverse SOGIESC communities, HIV services and key populations here.
Alice Merry (00:04):
Welcome to the podcast that takes a feminist look at the world of money. My name is Alice Merry, and this is the Feminist Finance Podcast. Today I spoke with Ramil Añosa Andag. Ramil is SOGIESC rights officer. That's sexual orientation, gender identity and expression and sex characteristics rights officer at APCOM. APCOM is a regional organization in Asia-Pacific, which works to improve the health and rights of gay men, other men who have sex with men, and SOGIESC people. This is our first episode focusing on the Asia-Pacific region and, although we've talked about LGBTQI financial inclusion previously, this is also the first episode focusing on this important topic. So I'm excited to share it with you.
Alice Merry (00:54):
I came into this interview with Ramil with a fairly narrow focus in mind on issues around LGBTQI financial inclusion, but Ramil did a brilliant job of pushing back on seeing financial inclusion in isolation. And in this interview, she pushes us to see how it is in fact closely entwined with other rights and areas of discrimination that people experience on the basis of SOGIESC characteristics.
Alice Merry (01:19):
Hi Ramil, and welcome to the Feminist Finance Podcast. It's a real pleasure to have you on today.
Ramil Añosa Andag (01:25):
Hi Alice, good morning. Thank you for having us here.
Alice Merry (01:28):
Perhaps you can start by introducing us to APCOM.
Ramil Añosa Andag (01:32):
Sure. APCOM is a regional organization and we're based in Bangkok. We were founded in 2007 and we work around our major principles of equity, dignity, social justice, and we focus on health and human rights of MSM and diverse people of diverse SOGIESC communities around Asia and the Pacific. So since 2007, APCOM has been working a lot around the issues of male sexual health, human rights, LGBTQI and human rights in broad strokes. And then we have partners around various countries in Asia and the Pacific. That's how we do our work.
Alice Merry (02:15):
Brilliant. And you're actually the first, this is actually the first interview we've had with someone in Asia. So it's brilliant. We're spreading across the world now from me here in Peru in Latin America to you in Bangkok.
Ramil Añosa Andag (02:29):
Thank you for reaching out to us.
Alice Merry (02:33):
Oh, it's brilliant to have you on. And I got in contact with you originally because I read about the Finance Inc. project, which I think is going to be really interesting to our listeners. So perhaps you could tell us a bit about the Finance Inc. project.
Ramil Añosa Andag (02:48):
Finance Inc. is actually a play on the term financial inclusion, which is one of the themes which we are working on right now in relation to our LGBTQI inclusion initiatives and financing would be in financial inclusion. But this project, is not just working on financial inclusion of LGBTQI, but we're also working around really in general, because at present there are existing but limited evidence in terms of research and body of literature on the effects of SOGIESC based discrimination on the economy. So what we want to do around finance is to contribute to economic, social and financial inclusion of LGBTQI longer-term. Specifically for this, we want to work with our country partners - LGBTQI organizations in Indonesia, Lao PDR, Cambodia, and the Philippines - for engaging with the private sector and multilateral development banks, which are present in the region.
Alice Merry (03:56):
It's really interesting to hear you mention development banks because I work in financial inclusion and that's kind of an unusual partner for me to come across. So I'd be interested to know why you see development banks as such an important stakeholder in LGBTQI inclusion?
Ramil Añosa Andag (04:16):
Yeah, I mean, for us also at APCOM and with our country partner organizations, that's also one of the realizations that engaging development banks and the private sector is not one of the traditional engagements which we did in the past because usually we engage with governments, we engage with community organizations. And why we looked into development banks as one of the strategic stakeholders which we could engage with is because development banks have portfolios on health, they have portfolios on education, they have portfolios on work, which are some of the domains of rights where LGBTQI people and communities are experiencing challenges in terms of access, in terms of quality of services and in terms of being included. And also we think that there are some movements towards this, the World Bank already has their SOGIESC strategies. And then we also saw some opportunities, like development banks referring to inclusive economies. And so we thought that if development banks and other financial institution, other private sector, will be discussing LGBTQI inclusion in the future, we are convinced that the LGBTQI community should be there at the table during those discussions.
Alice Merry (05:44):
And I suppose if LGBTQI people are there at the discussion and able to influence what development banks are doing, then development banks are moving such, they're dealing with an awful of money and huge portfolios projects, I suppose there's an opportunity there to have a really big impact?
Ramil Añosa Andag (06:04):
Yeah. And I think also in terms of standard setting, because, by and large, development banks are dealing with states and we also see that somehow, in terms of standard setting, inclusion within private sector and development banks also has this possibility of contributing to standard setting in terms of possible policies.
Alice Merry (06:27):
And how is it that Finance Inc. has engaged with development banks?
Ramil Añosa Andag (06:32):
What we did so far is that we had discussion with banks, with the Asian Development Bank, which is the development bank based in the region. We had discussions with them around introducing the project which we are doing and then the components, and then what they think about inclusion. And during both at their headquarters and at their resident nations in the countries where we are working on. And so far, we see an openness. Last year, for example, we were able to commemorate International Day Against Homophobia and Transphobia last May at their headquarters where there were panelists, both from the development bank and from the LGBTQI organizations. So we sort of discussed, what are the possibilities? So there's this kind of openness.
Alice Merry (07:31):
That's really positive. And if you were able to persuade development banks to do anything, what would you love to see development banks doing?
Ramil Añosa Andag (07:44):
We would love to see development banks, for example, being more inclusive in terms of policies, because policies should include, for example, look into what are the vulnerabilities of LGBTQI communities in relation to what they're doing? Are there specific effects of their projects to the LGBTQI communities in relation to vulnerability experience? In terms of processes, we are looking into inclusion of looking at poverty and other social issues, including with a SOGIESC perspective or lens. For example, when we analyze poverty, when we analyze what's the condition in a country, can we also look into how are this experienced by, because they are already looking at this in terms of vulnerable sectors, can we also include LGBTQI communities into this process?
Ramil Añosa Andag (08:46):
We are looking into more programs. So for knowledge building, awareness raising sessions related to SOGIESC and maybe projects which have LGBTQI components. We are also looking into spaces and activities where we want to see opening up of venues for participation of LGBTQI people and organizations. This can be in terms of consultations. This can be also in relation to partnerships, but we are also aware that this will not happen overnight. There are realities and contexts, but we're looking at this in a more broad strokes, in a more looking forward into the future.
Alice Merry (09:35):
You mentioned in that answer that you'd like them to get a better understanding of the specific vulnerabilities that LGBTQI people face and how that might relate to the projects that they're implementing. And I know that APCOM carried out some research, some focus groups about the factors that are affecting the financial status of LGBTQI people. Could you tell us a bit more about the findings of that research and the factors that were highlighted in it?
Ramil Añosa Andag (10:09):
Sure. But I think it would also be only fair to mention what are the focus of the research and then what are the limitations. For the focus group discussions and the research which we did, we wanted to look into experiences of economic, social, and financial inclusion or exclusion of LGBTQI as experience by LGBTQI people. We wanted to look into the challenges and issues in accessing social services, work, health and education. And we also wanted to look into what are the challenges and issues relating to economic and financial inclusion as experienced by LGBTQI.
Ramil Añosa Andag (10:46):
But there are limitations, for example, the research which we did via the focus group discussions and the review of related literature may not be able to tell the entire story of LGBTQI communities. Why? Because it was a rapid research: one. We did it in like five months. And then, it was only conducted in Cambodia, Indonesia, Lao PDR and the Philippines. And then the FGD's, we only conducted three FGDs in each country. And then the FGDs, we never look into equal representation in terms of age and in terms of geographies, from where the focus group participants would be coming from. So for the most part, the focus group participants were from capitals. So I think it's best to look into the results and highlights, which I will be sharing from that perspective.
Ramil Añosa Andag (11:40):
What are the highlights? LGBTQI people still experience discrimination and exclusion in the domains of education, work, and health and financial services. The basis of discrimination being experienced are actual SOGIESC or perceived SOGIESC, because as you know, there are already stereotypes attached to either your actual SOGIESC or your perceived SOGIESC, or how people perceive you to be, because mostly we still work in the binaries - male, female. And most of the time, this experiences of discrimination are based on gender expressions, because these are the most visible.
Ramil Añosa Andag (12:23):
So what our research tells us is that transgender individuals and those whose expressions do not conform to heteronormative standards and binary norms and expectations are those who most experience discrimination in relation to education, work and health. And then one other highlight and analysis which we have is that discrimination in terms of access to one right, affects access to other rights. For example, if the experiences in discrimination and non-inclusion in relation to access to education would affect the individual's future prospects in terms of access to that individual's right to work. And then, in turn, this affects also an individuals access to health services. And eventually that individual's financial situation. Sexual orientation, gender identities, expression, and sex characteristics are not the only basis for experiences of exclusion. This intersects with heteronormative standards. For example, the policies around education, the policies around employment are still primarily heteronormative. So this also affects what their experiences are in the domains of education, work and health. And then there's also what's socioeconomic situation of the families where they are from.
Alice Merry (13:54):
Such a powerful way to think about it and explain it as well, because I think it's easy to think about isolated incidents of discrimination, but really what your research shows is how discrimination in education compounds discrimination in the workplace, compounds discrimination in health, and how these tie together.
Ramil Añosa Andag (14:15):
Yeah. That analysis was born out of the focus group discussions which we did and discuss across all the four countries. This experiences is one of the general themes which surfaced during our focus group discussions.
Alice Merry (14:33):
And I guess that ties back a bit with the importance of working with development banks, right? That they have these policies and these programs across all of these different areas. And so if they're not addressing issues of LGBTQI exclusion across all these different areas, then it really has be an overarching approach.
Ramil Añosa Andag (14:53):
So that's why we are looking into longer term policies. We're looking longer term into programs and that if there are already existing like windows, which these are being done by development banks, how do we speed that up? How do we make that more comprehensive? How do we contribute to tying up the smaller pieces into longer term policies?
Alice Merry (15:21):
I wanted to ask you to speak in a bit more detail about financial inclusion. That was one of the areas that you mentioned came up in the focus groups. And I'd be interested to know more about the experiences that you heard with financial institutions and how these tie into the different areas that you already mentioned?
Ramil Añosa Andag (15:43):
What we saw was that LGBTQI are economically diverse. The LGBTQI population is spread across the economic stratum. So, there's no singular experience of financial and economic experience of an LGBTQI person, but participants, focus group discussion participants, shared experiences in limitations in accessing financial services. For example, because you had limitations in terms of access to education, which in turn affected your access to work, this really has effects on whether or not you have regular income. And then also based on that discrimination and exclusion being experienced based on whether or not you're LGBTQI, this also results in work insecurity. And then there are experiences of not being able also to perform because of this additional stress and burden. And then a person's, as I said earlier, a person's SOGIESC affects economic opportunities. Do you want to put up a business? There can be some limitations in terms of accessing financial services because it's that the programs can still be binary to the traditional male and traditional female.
Ramil Añosa Andag (17:12):
That's how programs largely are developed because accessing financial services requires legal documents. Some legal documents do not correspond with identity and expression. And then there are also issues around stereotypes. So this affects access to financial services. And in some instances the legal document requirements are not available or are not with the person because of not being based from his or her place of origin because he or she had to leave his or her original place of residence because of experiences of discrimination or because of how the relationship with the families were.
Alice Merry (18:00):
I was wondering whether you've seen any examples of financial institutions responding to these kinds of challenges or providing alternatives?
Ramil Añosa Andag (18:10):
What we see is that there are financial institutions, which are now also being broader in terms of how they loop into the programs like welcoming LGBTQI people and communities to access their services. There is that, but by and large, I think it's still there. These limitations and challenges are the norm. So there might be some institutions which are more inclusive now, but we hope to see more inclusion in terms of making services and programs also being accessible to LGBTQI people.
Alice Merry (18:53):
What would you hope to see these financial institutions doing to make their services more accessible to LGBTQI people?
Ramil Añosa Andag (19:02):
We want to see more participation of LGBTQI communities in terms of how are these programs crafted. How should these financial programs respond to the context? We want to see more capacity strengthening of LGBTQI people also to engage with financial institutions. Because as we said earlier, this is a new and exciting venue which we can look into, but how can financial institutions and the private sector also contribute to capacitating the LGBTQI organizations and communities to be able to meaningfully participate in their processes? Maybe also, evidence building. What is the present state of inclusion in their institutions, and how can this be improved to becoming more inclusive?
Alice Merry (19:53):
I was curious to hear you talk about the capacity building. How does that work? Is that financial institutions carrying out capacity building with LGBTQI people or the other way round?
Ramil Añosa Andag (20:05):
It should be two ways because LGBTQI organizations can add to the awareness of financial and private institutions in terms of what's the situation, what's the LGBTQI situation. And then financial institutions can also contribute to capacity building of LGBTQI organizations in terms of how do you engage with financial institutions? Because that knowledge can come from the financial institutions, but the knowledge and the expertise about LGBTQI experiences and how programs could respond to that context should come from the LGBTQI community. So I'm thinking around this in terms of two ways, not just not unilateral, because that also makes participation and engagement more meaningful.
Alice Merry (20:54):
I wanted to ask you about digital financial services, because we know that across the world, services, financial services, they're becoming increasingly digital. We're doing more and more financial transactions on our phones, on the internet. And there's been kind of a debate about whether that's more inclusive or less inclusive than traditional financial services. Some people say there's a positive element to this because it's more anonymous, it's less person to person. Maybe that can reduce discrimination in some cases. On the other hand, people who are already excluded are more vulnerable, may find it more difficult to access the technology. I'm just curious, and I know that this trend towards digitalization of financial services has been really strong in Asia. So I'm curious to see whether you've seen that having a positive or a negative impact.
Ramil Añosa Andag (21:48):
I will be honest and say that digital financial services was not, unfortunately, it was not one of the themes which we looked into in terms of our research. And perhaps it's true that there is that increase towards that platform in the region. And it's something which should be looked into, but what are my thoughts on this? We have to look also into what's the context where digital technology is existing in countries. There can be some limitations in terms of access by LGBTQI communities. Maybe there are positive sides to it, but also there might be some challenges also. Are the community's capacitated to engage in the emerging platforms? So, yeah, that's a very interesting point to look into. Really, we will look into that, Alice.
Alice Merry (22:49):
Interesting. Yeah. I think there must certainly be positives and negatives. We had an interesting discussion in episode two of this podcast about some research in Tanzania that showed that some online, some mobile financial services were having higher take-up among transgender people. They could set up the accounts on their phones. They were perhaps, I think the idea was that perhaps they were experiencing less discrimination when they could just make the account on their phone.
Ramil Añosa Andag (23:22):
Yeah. Maybe. Yeah, because that still will be less face to face interaction. Yeah. Interesting to look into. It will not also address, it may not be able to address how programs are developed in the first place, because programs would still be heteronormative and binary and maybe this is just one of the ways to go around that perhaps?
Alice Merry (23:47):
It's more of a temporary get around than a real solution.
Ramil Añosa Andag (23:51):
Which is not necessarily bad.
Alice Merry (23:54):
I wanted to finish by asking the last question. So, usually I finish the interviews in most cases, by asking interviewees what a feminist financial system would look like to them. And obviously a financial system that's inclusive of LGBTQI people would be an essential part of a feminist approach. I wanted to ask you the question a bit more specifically in this case, what a financial system that was truly inclusive of LGBTQI people might look like to you? If you had the power to kind of click your fingers and redesign the system however you wanted, what would it look like?
Ramil Añosa Andag (24:34):
I would love to have that power... Yeah, don't we all. My thoughts are and how I look into this. I think we should go back to the basic principles of human rights and rights-based programming. How do we make programs more participatory? How do we practice non-discrimination in the programs that we do? How do our programs, how do we ensure that our programs contribute to increasing human dignity? How do we make sure that our programs contribute to equality and inclusion? So in more specific terms, programs and services should be expanded and not based on the present traditional binaries. The reality is the world is not limited to the traditional heteronormative binaries. We should consider also integrating a lens which looks into sexual orientation, gender identities and expressions and sex characteristics.
Ramil Añosa Andag (25:44):
We should look into and consider contexts. What are the issues and challenges being experienced based on a person's sexual orientation, gender identity, expression, and sex characteristics? We should not only look at LGBTQI populations as beneficiaries who will be the recipient of programs and services, because we should look at this from a meaningful participation perspective. How do we ensure widest possible meaningful participation of vulnerable communities, including the LGBTQI, in the whole programming cycle. And when I say programming cycle, I'm looking into from situation analysis, from planning, from implementation to evaluation. So I will go back to the principles and cornerstones of human rights and rights-based programming, basically, which would be participation, non-discrimination, human dignity, equality and inclusion.
Alice Merry (26:52):
The words meaningful participation stuck with me from that interview. It's not enough for LGBTQI communities to be seen only as customers, in the case of financial institutions, or beneficiaries, in the case of development banks. They need to have a place at the table in designing products and projects. And as more institutions start to think about addressing the needs of LGBTQI people, organizations like APCOM are so important to make sure that people with diverse SOGIESC characteristics are participating in a meaningful way.
Alice Merry (27:24):
You've probably noticed that we didn't mention COVID-19 at all in the interview. In fact, I spoke with Ramil before the world went into lockdown, but we touched base again recently and Ramil told me about the important impact of the pandemic on LGBTQI and other marginalized groups. In fact, APCOM carried out a survey which looked into the specific effects of COVID-19 on LGBTQI communities in various countries in Asia-Pacific. And it found that the pandemic was exacerbating experiences of exclusion.
Alice Merry (27:55):
In particular, the survey found that many of the establishments where LGBTQI people worked,were being closed. And even those who work in the informal economy are also being affected and facing greater insecurity. Lockdowns and restrictions on mobility also had an important impact on access to health services for people living with HIV and AIDS, and important mental health services accessed by LGBTQI individuals. I'll share APCOM's report on this in the show notes so that you can find out more about the experience of LGBTQI people during the pandemic in Asia and the Pacific.
Alice Merry (28:30):
Thanks a lot for listening to this episode. I hope you enjoyed listening to it as much as I enjoyed recording it and learning from Ramil. If you did enjoy it, please do share it. Please do leave a rating and a review. Really appreciate it.